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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Good debt&#8221; is for dumb people</title>
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	<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html</link>
	<description>A less crappy personal finance blog</description>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2324</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2324</guid>
		<description>About a month, assuming you pick up one penny per second for 8 hours a day.  If you take weekends off, that would push it up to about six and a half weeks.

A useful way to think about millions and billions is with time.  One million seconds is a little over 11 days.  One billion seconds is about 34 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a month, assuming you pick up one penny per second for 8 hours a day.  If you take weekends off, that would push it up to about six and a half weeks.</p>
<p>A useful way to think about millions and billions is with time.  One million seconds is a little over 11 days.  One billion seconds is about 34 years.</p>
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		<title>By: PunchDebt</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2323</link>
		<dc:creator>PunchDebt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2323</guid>
		<description>I guess we differ in that I won&#039;t consider my home an investment. I have blogged about it before, but a home&#039;s primary purpose should be for living. The investment side is just a bonus in my eyes. I would never buy a home simply because I think it&#039;s a good investment. So buying a home for me is not really a gamble. It&#039;s a necessity, that could possibly return my money to me down the road. 
 
I think you and I actually agree, we just use different terminology. I understand why student loans and mortgages could be argued called good debt, I just simply choose to refer to them as &quot;less sucky&quot; debt. Either way it sounds like we both have similar goals, just different strategies. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess we differ in that I won&#039;t consider my home an investment. I have blogged about it before, but a home&#039;s primary purpose should be for living. The investment side is just a bonus in my eyes. I would never buy a home simply because I think it&#039;s a good investment. So buying a home for me is not really a gamble. It&#039;s a necessity, that could possibly return my money to me down the road. </p>
<p>I think you and I actually agree, we just use different terminology. I understand why student loans and mortgages could be argued called good debt, I just simply choose to refer to them as &quot;less sucky&quot; debt. Either way it sounds like we both have similar goals, just different strategies.</p>
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		<title>By: @billda</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2321</link>
		<dc:creator>@billda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2321</guid>
		<description>Obviously you are correct - with debt comes risk. I am NOT advocating borrowing to play in the stock market - just trying to illustrate the point. Taking on a large mortgage hoping a home will appreciate is exactly the same as borrowing to play the market - you are betting the housing market will go up. Quite risky, as many have discovered. 
 
Remember, when buying a house you&#039;ve essentially made a gamble - you&#039;ve borrowed at a certain rate in order to invest in the home - you are betting the price of the home appreciates at a higher rate than the interest rate on the loan. If this appreciation doesn&#039;t materialize, what has actually happened is you have incorrectly estimated your opportunity cost of capital - you expected the home to increase in value more than it did, and now you have lost money on the investment. 
 
You need to realize that your personal opportunity cost of capital should be a risk-adjusted average - i.e. the rate you expect to earn over the long term (well technically, the life of whatever debt instrument we are talking about - so 30 years for a mortgage). That&#039;s why even if you have earned 25% in the stock market this year, you should not use that amount as your opportunity cost of capital - you should still use ~8%, which is your expected LONG-TERM return on invested assets. This 8% accounts for the average of both your +30% years and your -20% years - it is a long-term rate of return. 
 
Notice I did not say a student loan or mortgage is inherently &quot;good&quot; debt, only that they are USUALLY CONSIDERED &quot;good debt&quot; because they typically have lower interest rates. It all comes back to the comparison to your own personal opportunity cost of capital. It is different for everyone, and estimating accurately is the whole key here. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously you are correct &#8211; with debt comes risk. I am NOT advocating borrowing to play in the stock market &#8211; just trying to illustrate the point. Taking on a large mortgage hoping a home will appreciate is exactly the same as borrowing to play the market &#8211; you are betting the housing market will go up. Quite risky, as many have discovered. </p>
<p>Remember, when buying a house you&#039;ve essentially made a gamble &#8211; you&#039;ve borrowed at a certain rate in order to invest in the home &#8211; you are betting the price of the home appreciates at a higher rate than the interest rate on the loan. If this appreciation doesn&#039;t materialize, what has actually happened is you have incorrectly estimated your opportunity cost of capital &#8211; you expected the home to increase in value more than it did, and now you have lost money on the investment. </p>
<p>You need to realize that your personal opportunity cost of capital should be a risk-adjusted average &#8211; i.e. the rate you expect to earn over the long term (well technically, the life of whatever debt instrument we are talking about &#8211; so 30 years for a mortgage). That&#039;s why even if you have earned 25% in the stock market this year, you should not use that amount as your opportunity cost of capital &#8211; you should still use ~8%, which is your expected LONG-TERM return on invested assets. This 8% accounts for the average of both your +30% years and your -20% years &#8211; it is a long-term rate of return. </p>
<p>Notice I did not say a student loan or mortgage is inherently &quot;good&quot; debt, only that they are USUALLY CONSIDERED &quot;good debt&quot; because they typically have lower interest rates. It all comes back to the comparison to your own personal opportunity cost of capital. It is different for everyone, and estimating accurately is the whole key here.</p>
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		<title>By: PunchDebt</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2313</link>
		<dc:creator>PunchDebt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2313</guid>
		<description>Try selling that to the people who took on &quot;good debt&quot; thinking their home would appreciate and now are facing foreclosure. Or to the people who&#039;s stocks dropped by 50% in a relatively short time. When you take on debt (good or bad) you take on risk. If you like to play the odds then that is your game, but that doesn&#039;t mean a mortgage is &quot;good&quot; it just means it is &quot;less bad&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try selling that to the people who took on &#8220;good debt&#8221; thinking their home would appreciate and now are facing foreclosure. Or to the people who&#8217;s stocks dropped by 50% in a relatively short time. When you take on debt (good or bad) you take on risk. If you like to play the odds then that is your game, but that doesn&#8217;t mean a mortgage is &#8220;good&#8221; it just means it is &#8220;less bad&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: @billda</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2312</link>
		<dc:creator>@billda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2312</guid>
		<description>Disagree, there is *absolutely* a distinction between good and bad debt, and a mathematical one at that - no guesswork or ethical judgments needed. 
 
In order to make the distinction, you need to first determine your own personal &quot;opportunity cost of capital&quot;. This is a fancy economics term for the return you earn on money that you have saved. If all of your spare change is sitting in a savings account, your opportunity cost of capital is probably around 1%. If you have it in bonds, probably around 3-4%. Stocks, ~8%.  
 
You can now make the distinction - if you can borrow at a rate that is BELOW your opportunity cost of capital, that debt is GOOD DEBT. Since I have historically achieved +-10% annual return on my savings (equities mostly), I would gladly borrow $1 million tomorrow (if someone would lend it to me) at any rate below 10%. I would then take the $1 million and invest as I usually do, pocketing the difference between the interest rate I borrowed at and the 10% return I receive on the invested $1 million. 
 
This is why most people consider student loans and mortgages to be &quot;good debt&quot; - their interest rates are typically very low because they are either asset backed (mortgage) or government subsidized (student loans). It makes more sense to put your spare cash into an investment that earns 10%, rather that eliminating a debt that costs 5%. Follow? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disagree, there is *absolutely* a distinction between good and bad debt, and a mathematical one at that &#8211; no guesswork or ethical judgments needed. </p>
<p>In order to make the distinction, you need to first determine your own personal &quot;opportunity cost of capital&quot;. This is a fancy economics term for the return you earn on money that you have saved. If all of your spare change is sitting in a savings account, your opportunity cost of capital is probably around 1%. If you have it in bonds, probably around 3-4%. Stocks, ~8%.  </p>
<p>You can now make the distinction &#8211; if you can borrow at a rate that is BELOW your opportunity cost of capital, that debt is GOOD DEBT. Since I have historically achieved +-10% annual return on my savings (equities mostly), I would gladly borrow $1 million tomorrow (if someone would lend it to me) at any rate below 10%. I would then take the $1 million and invest as I usually do, pocketing the difference between the interest rate I borrowed at and the 10% return I receive on the invested $1 million. </p>
<p>This is why most people consider student loans and mortgages to be &quot;good debt&quot; &#8211; their interest rates are typically very low because they are either asset backed (mortgage) or government subsidized (student loans). It makes more sense to put your spare cash into an investment that earns 10%, rather that eliminating a debt that costs 5%. Follow?</p>
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		<title>By: livinglargevegas</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2293</link>
		<dc:creator>livinglargevegas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2293</guid>
		<description>oh, all of my student loans were subsidized none were private. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh, all of my student loans were subsidized none were private.</p>
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		<title>By: livinglargevegas</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2292</link>
		<dc:creator>livinglargevegas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2292</guid>
		<description>Sorry but without student loans my spouse and I would not have been able to have the careers we now enjoy. That said, I believe private students loans are the worse consumer product this side of a payday loan. I borrowed about 100K and was in college 12 years. Adjusted for inflation and keeping in mind the low APR, that was some of the cheapest money I could have borrowed...I mean paying back 1988 dollars with 2005 dollars was a great situation (at least for those of you who understand nominal verses real dollars... ) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry but without student loans my spouse and I would not have been able to have the careers we now enjoy. That said, I believe private students loans are the worse consumer product this side of a payday loan. I borrowed about 100K and was in college 12 years. Adjusted for inflation and keeping in mind the low APR, that was some of the cheapest money I could have borrowed&#8230;I mean paying back 1988 dollars with 2005 dollars was a great situation (at least for those of you who understand nominal verses real dollars&#8230; )</p>
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		<title>By: Wendy</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-2168</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-2168</guid>
		<description>I agree. I think the fact that it doesn&#039;t seem as threatening and stressful as cc debt or other debts for that matter leads more people to feel good about classifying it as &quot;good debt&quot;.  Before I starting taking an interest in personal finance blogs, I too was under the &quot;good debt&quot; mentality but I&#039;m slowly changing my ways. PD, you example of taking a bank loan to invest in your IRA made a lot of sense. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. I think the fact that it doesn&#039;t seem as threatening and stressful as cc debt or other debts for that matter leads more people to feel good about classifying it as &quot;good debt&quot;.  Before I starting taking an interest in personal finance blogs, I too was under the &quot;good debt&quot; mentality but I&#039;m slowly changing my ways. PD, you example of taking a bank loan to invest in your IRA made a lot of sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Wendell</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-1952</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-1952</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always considered any debt that allows me to take a tax deduction to be &quot;good debt&quot;. It&#039;s a silly rationalization, but any little bit of what I pay off that comes back to me is a &quot;good&quot; thing. You never get your credit card debt payments back. Sure, maybe I only get a portion of my mortgage interest back, but I live in a house (I HATE apartments/attached homes. Never had a good experience.) and to get even 10% of that interest back only sweetens the pot.  
 
My student loans suck - especially because I went to a crappy school, had half my credits transfer and still ended up taking $40K in loans. The $2K interest I get back (if that...), makes me classify that loan as &quot;bad&quot; debt.  
 
Long story short - I think classifications of debt as &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot; are truly a personal decision. One size does not fit all when it comes to our tolerances for certain types of debt. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve always considered any debt that allows me to take a tax deduction to be &quot;good debt&quot;. It&#039;s a silly rationalization, but any little bit of what I pay off that comes back to me is a &quot;good&quot; thing. You never get your credit card debt payments back. Sure, maybe I only get a portion of my mortgage interest back, but I live in a house (I HATE apartments/attached homes. Never had a good experience.) and to get even 10% of that interest back only sweetens the pot.  </p>
<p>My student loans suck &#8211; especially because I went to a crappy school, had half my credits transfer and still ended up taking $40K in loans. The $2K interest I get back (if that&#8230;), makes me classify that loan as &quot;bad&quot; debt.  </p>
<p>Long story short &#8211; I think classifications of debt as &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot; are truly a personal decision. One size does not fit all when it comes to our tolerances for certain types of debt.</p>
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		<title>By: SS4BC</title>
		<link>http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/2009/11/good-debt-dumb-people.html#comment-1880</link>
		<dc:creator>SS4BC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.punchdebtintheface.com/?p=363#comment-1880</guid>
		<description>Heh... I also had a full scholarship (and free room, board and books)... and yet I still took out a student loan. All to buy a car! It was one of the worst decisions I&#039;ve made... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh&#8230; I also had a full scholarship (and free room, board and books)&#8230; and yet I still took out a student loan. All to buy a car! It was one of the worst decisions I&#039;ve made&#8230;</p>
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